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xorg

Tom Ferris
I am trying to install xorg, and I get the following error:

---> Fetching xorg
Hi, my name is xorg
I am broken and looking for someone to fix me.
What can I say ?

I tried installed X11user.dmg from Apple, but its says I already have it
installed?  Very confusing because when I try to run ethereal, I get this
error message:

dyld: Library not loaded: /usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.6.dyulib
   Referenced from: /opt/local/bin/ethereal
   Reason: image not found

-- Tom
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Re: xorg

Brad Montgomery
Tom,

I've been able to successfully run Ethereal (which I installed with
DP) with Apple's X11.  Take a look here:
http://bradmontgomery.net/show.php?page=project_osxX11

What version of OS X are you running?

On 3/28/06, Tom Ferris <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I am trying to install xorg, and I get the following error:
>
> ---> Fetching xorg
> Hi, my name is xorg
> I am broken and looking for someone to fix me.
> What can I say ?
>
> I tried installed X11user.dmg from Apple, but its says I already have it
> installed?  Very confusing because when I try to run ethereal, I get this
> error message:
>
> dyld: Library not loaded: /usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.6.dyulib
>    Referenced from: /opt/local/bin/ethereal
>    Reason: image not found
>
> -- Tom
> _______________________________________________
> Darwinports mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports
>
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Re: xorg

Tom Ferris


On Tue, 28 Mar 2006, Brad Montgomery wrote:

> Tom,
>
> I've been able to successfully run Ethereal (which I installed with
> DP) with Apple's X11.  Take a look here:
> http://bradmontgomery.net/show.php?page=project_osxX11

I did the steps on removing all the X11 libs, and then tried to install
the X11user.dmg, and its still saying a newer version exists.  But I
cannot find it? ;)

>
> What version of OS X are you running?
>

10.4.5 PPC

> On 3/28/06, Tom Ferris <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I am trying to install xorg, and I get the following error:
>>
>> ---> Fetching xorg
>> Hi, my name is xorg
>> I am broken and looking for someone to fix me.
>> What can I say ?
>>
>> I tried installed X11user.dmg from Apple, but its says I already have it
>> installed?  Very confusing because when I try to run ethereal, I get this
>> error message:
>>
>> dyld: Library not loaded: /usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.6.dyulib
>>    Referenced from: /opt/local/bin/ethereal
>>    Reason: image not found
>>
>> -- Tom
>> _______________________________________________
>> Darwinports mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Darwinports mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports
>
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Re: xorg

Brad Montgomery
You may also have to run

sudo rm -rf /Applications/Utilities/X11.app/

This will also delete the X11.app.  Originally, I was using XDarwin
instead.  Apparently I've broken my X installation again, so I will
update my website with my 2nd round experiences.

On 3/28/06, Tom Ferris <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, 28 Mar 2006, Brad Montgomery wrote:
>
> > Tom,
> >
> > I've been able to successfully run Ethereal (which I installed with
> > DP) with Apple's X11.  Take a look here:
> > http://bradmontgomery.net/show.php?page=project_osxX11
>
> I did the steps on removing all the X11 libs, and then tried to install
> the X11user.dmg, and its still saying a newer version exists.  But I
> cannot find it? ;)
>
> >
> > What version of OS X are you running?
> >
>
> 10.4.5 PPC
>
> > On 3/28/06, Tom Ferris <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> I am trying to install xorg, and I get the following error:
> >>
> >> ---> Fetching xorg
> >> Hi, my name is xorg
> >> I am broken and looking for someone to fix me.
> >> What can I say ?
> >>
> >> I tried installed X11user.dmg from Apple, but its says I already have it
> >> installed?  Very confusing because when I try to run ethereal, I get this
> >> error message:
> >>
> >> dyld: Library not loaded: /usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.6.dyulib
> >>    Referenced from: /opt/local/bin/ethereal
> >>    Reason: image not found
> >>
> >> -- Tom
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Darwinports mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Darwinports mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports
> >
>
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Re: xorg

Tom Ferris
Brad Montgomery wrote:

>You may also have to run
>
>sudo rm -rf /Applications/Utilities/X11.app/
>  
>

yeah, does not exist.. ;(  and i still cant install the X11user.dmg.  so
weird..

>This will also delete the X11.app.  Originally, I was using XDarwin
>instead.  Apparently I've broken my X installation again, so I will
>update my website with my 2nd round experiences.
>
>On 3/28/06, Tom Ferris <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>
>>On Tue, 28 Mar 2006, Brad Montgomery wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Tom,
>>>
>>>I've been able to successfully run Ethereal (which I installed with
>>>DP) with Apple's X11.  Take a look here:
>>>http://bradmontgomery.net/show.php?page=project_osxX11
>>>      
>>>
>>I did the steps on removing all the X11 libs, and then tried to install
>>the X11user.dmg, and its still saying a newer version exists.  But I
>>cannot find it? ;)
>>
>>    
>>
>>>What version of OS X are you running?
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>10.4.5 PPC
>>
>>    
>>
>>>On 3/28/06, Tom Ferris <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>      
>>>
>>>>I am trying to install xorg, and I get the following error:
>>>>
>>>>---> Fetching xorg
>>>>Hi, my name is xorg
>>>>I am broken and looking for someone to fix me.
>>>>What can I say ?
>>>>
>>>>I tried installed X11user.dmg from Apple, but its says I already have it
>>>>installed?  Very confusing because when I try to run ethereal, I get this
>>>>error message:
>>>>
>>>>dyld: Library not loaded: /usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.6.dyulib
>>>>   Referenced from: /opt/local/bin/ethereal
>>>>   Reason: image not found
>>>>
>>>>-- Tom
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>Darwinports mailing list
>>>>[hidden email]
>>>>http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Darwinports mailing list
>>>[hidden email]
>>>http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>_______________________________________________
>Darwinports mailing list
>[hidden email]
>http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports
>  
>


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Hard Links [was Re: xorg]

Salvatore Domenick Desiano
There was a flare-up a few weeks ago about hard links. People felt
strongly that they shouldn't be used, but they (including me) weren't
the people who actually write the port system code and do actual work,
and we couldn't come up with a strong reason to force us to move away
from hard links, so nothing ever happpened.

Does anyone have any way of demosntrating that hard links can actually
cause a slow down?

-- Sal

P.S. Hard links -- possible Wiki design decision entry

smile.




On Wed, 29 Mar 2006, Tom Ferris wrote:

o Brad Montgomery wrote:
o
o >You may also have to run
o >
o >sudo rm -rf /Applications/Utilities/X11.app/
o >
o >
o
o yeah, does not exist.. ;(  and i still cant install the X11user.dmg.  so
o weird..
o
o >This will also delete the X11.app.  Originally, I was using XDarwin
o >instead.  Apparently I've broken my X installation again, so I will
o >update my website with my 2nd round experiences.
o >
o >On 3/28/06, Tom Ferris <[hidden email]> wrote:
o >
o >
o >>On Tue, 28 Mar 2006, Brad Montgomery wrote:
o >>
o >>
o >>
o >>>Tom,
o >>>
o >>>I've been able to successfully run Ethereal (which I installed with
o >>>DP) with Apple's X11.  Take a look here:
o >>>http://bradmontgomery.net/show.php?page=project_osxX11
o >>>
o >>>
o >>I did the steps on removing all the X11 libs, and then tried to install
o >>the X11user.dmg, and its still saying a newer version exists.  But I
o >>cannot find it? ;)
o >>
o >>
o >>
o >>>What version of OS X are you running?
o >>>
o >>>
o >>>
o >>10.4.5 PPC
o >>
o >>
o >>
o >>>On 3/28/06, Tom Ferris <[hidden email]> wrote:
o >>>
o >>>
o >>>>I am trying to install xorg, and I get the following error:
o >>>>
o >>>>---> Fetching xorg
o >>>>Hi, my name is xorg
o >>>>I am broken and looking for someone to fix me.
o >>>>What can I say ?
o >>>>
o >>>>I tried installed X11user.dmg from Apple, but its says I already have it
o >>>>installed?  Very confusing because when I try to run ethereal, I get this
o >>>>error message:
o >>>>
o >>>>dyld: Library not loaded: /usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.6.dyulib
o >>>>   Referenced from: /opt/local/bin/ethereal
o >>>>   Reason: image not found
o >>>>
o >>>>-- Tom
o >>>>_______________________________________________
o >>>>Darwinports mailing list
o >>>>[hidden email]
o >>>>http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports
o >>>>
o >>>>
o >>>>
o >>>_______________________________________________
o >>>Darwinports mailing list
o >>>[hidden email]
o >>>http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports
o >>>
o >>>
o >>>
o >_______________________________________________
o >Darwinports mailing list
o >[hidden email]
o >http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports
o >
o >
o
o
o _______________________________________________
o Darwinports mailing list
o [hidden email]
o http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports
o
o

--------------
  Salvatore Domenick Desiano
    Research Scientist
      Intelligent Systems Division (QSS Group, Inc.)
        Explorations Technology Directorate
          NASA Ames Research Center

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Re: Hard Links [was Re: xorg]

James Berry-3

On Mar 29, 2006, at 10:23 AM, Salvatore Domenick Desiano wrote:

> There was a flare-up a few weeks ago about hard links. People felt
> strongly that they shouldn't be used, but they (including me) weren't
> the people who actually write the port system code and do actual work,
> and we couldn't come up with a strong reason to force us to move away
> from hard links, so nothing ever happpened.

I think our long term direction, especially as we work to support  
binary packages, is to move away from image mode, and thus to move  
away from such heavy use of hard links.  That said, I don't know of  
any particular problems with hardlinks on 10.4. There were definite  
performance issues with hardlinks on 10.3, due apparently to a bug or  
sub-optimization in HFS.

In general, HFS is not architected to deal well with loads of  
hardlinks, which is what having a lot of ports in image mode can give  
you.

As Shantonu pointed out yesterday, you are welcome to use direct  
mode, which will mean that hard links aren't created as part of the  
typical port install process.

James

>
> Does anyone have any way of demosntrating that hard links can actually
> cause a slow down?
>
> -- Sal
>
> P.S. Hard links -- possible Wiki design decision entry
>
> smile.
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, 29 Mar 2006, Tom Ferris wrote:
>
> o Brad Montgomery wrote:
> o
> o >You may also have to run
> o >
> o >sudo rm -rf /Applications/Utilities/X11.app/
> o >
> o >
> o
> o yeah, does not exist.. ;(  and i still cant install the  
> X11user.dmg.  so
> o weird..
> o
> o >This will also delete the X11.app.  Originally, I was using XDarwin
> o >instead.  Apparently I've broken my X installation again, so I will
> o >update my website with my 2nd round experiences.
> o >
> o >On 3/28/06, Tom Ferris <[hidden email]> wrote:
> o >
> o >
> o >>On Tue, 28 Mar 2006, Brad Montgomery wrote:
> o >>
> o >>
> o >>
> o >>>Tom,
> o >>>
> o >>>I've been able to successfully run Ethereal (which I installed  
> with
> o >>>DP) with Apple's X11.  Take a look here:
> o >>>http://bradmontgomery.net/show.php?page=project_osxX11
> o >>>
> o >>>
> o >>I did the steps on removing all the X11 libs, and then tried to  
> install
> o >>the X11user.dmg, and its still saying a newer version exists.  
> But I
> o >>cannot find it? ;)
> o >>
> o >>
> o >>
> o >>>What version of OS X are you running?
> o >>>
> o >>>
> o >>>
> o >>10.4.5 PPC
> o >>
> o >>
> o >>
> o >>>On 3/28/06, Tom Ferris <[hidden email]> wrote:
> o >>>
> o >>>
> o >>>>I am trying to install xorg, and I get the following error:
> o >>>>
> o >>>>---> Fetching xorg
> o >>>>Hi, my name is xorg
> o >>>>I am broken and looking for someone to fix me.
> o >>>>What can I say ?
> o >>>>
> o >>>>I tried installed X11user.dmg from Apple, but its says I  
> already have it
> o >>>>installed?  Very confusing because when I try to run  
> ethereal, I get this
> o >>>>error message:
> o >>>>
> o >>>>dyld: Library not loaded: /usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.6.dyulib
> o >>>>   Referenced from: /opt/local/bin/ethereal
> o >>>>   Reason: image not found
> o >>>>
> o >>>>-- Tom
> o >>>>_______________________________________________
> o >>>>Darwinports mailing list
> o >>>>[hidden email]
> o >>>>http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports
> o >>>>
> o >>>>
> o >>>>
> o >>>_______________________________________________
> o >>>Darwinports mailing list
> o >>>[hidden email]
> o >>>http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports
> o >>>
> o >>>
> o >>>
> o >_______________________________________________
> o >Darwinports mailing list
> o >[hidden email]
> o >http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports
> o >
> o >
> o
> o
> o _______________________________________________
> o Darwinports mailing list
> o [hidden email]
> o http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports
> o
> o
>
> --------------
>   Salvatore Domenick Desiano
>     Research Scientist
>       Intelligent Systems Division (QSS Group, Inc.)
>         Explorations Technology Directorate
>           NASA Ames Research Center
>
> _______________________________________________
> Darwinports mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports

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Re: Hard Links [was Re: xorg]

Salvatore Domenick Desiano
I'm on 10.3, which accounts for my issue.

I've already begun switching to direct mode.

Glad to hear that the long-term direction is away from hard links.

-- Sal
smile.



On Wed, 29 Mar 2006, James Berry wrote:

o
o On Mar 29, 2006, at 10:23 AM, Salvatore Domenick Desiano wrote:
o
o > There was a flare-up a few weeks ago about hard links. People felt
o > strongly that they shouldn't be used, but they (including me) weren't
o > the people who actually write the port system code and do actual work,
o > and we couldn't come up with a strong reason to force us to move away
o > from hard links, so nothing ever happpened.
o
o I think our long term direction, especially as we work to support
o binary packages, is to move away from image mode, and thus to move
o away from such heavy use of hard links.  That said, I don't know of
o any particular problems with hardlinks on 10.4. There were definite
o performance issues with hardlinks on 10.3, due apparently to a bug or
o sub-optimization in HFS.
o
o In general, HFS is not architected to deal well with loads of
o hardlinks, which is what having a lot of ports in image mode can give
o you.
o
o As Shantonu pointed out yesterday, you are welcome to use direct
o mode, which will mean that hard links aren't created as part of the
o typical port install process.
o
o James
o
o >
o > Does anyone have any way of demosntrating that hard links can actually
o > cause a slow down?
o >
o > -- Sal
o >
o > P.S. Hard links -- possible Wiki design decision entry
o >
o > smile.
o >
o >
o >
o >
o > On Wed, 29 Mar 2006, Tom Ferris wrote:
o >
o > o Brad Montgomery wrote:
o > o
o > o >You may also have to run
o > o >
o > o >sudo rm -rf /Applications/Utilities/X11.app/
o > o >
o > o >
o > o
o > o yeah, does not exist.. ;(  and i still cant install the
o > X11user.dmg.  so
o > o weird..
o > o
o > o >This will also delete the X11.app.  Originally, I was using XDarwin
o > o >instead.  Apparently I've broken my X installation again, so I will
o > o >update my website with my 2nd round experiences.
o > o >
o > o >On 3/28/06, Tom Ferris <[hidden email]> wrote:
o > o >
o > o >
o > o >>On Tue, 28 Mar 2006, Brad Montgomery wrote:
o > o >>
o > o >>
o > o >>
o > o >>>Tom,
o > o >>>
o > o >>>I've been able to successfully run Ethereal (which I installed
o > with
o > o >>>DP) with Apple's X11.  Take a look here:
o > o >>>http://bradmontgomery.net/show.php?page=project_osxX11
o > o >>>
o > o >>>
o > o >>I did the steps on removing all the X11 libs, and then tried to
o > install
o > o >>the X11user.dmg, and its still saying a newer version exists.
o > But I
o > o >>cannot find it? ;)
o > o >>
o > o >>
o > o >>
o > o >>>What version of OS X are you running?
o > o >>>
o > o >>>
o > o >>>
o > o >>10.4.5 PPC
o > o >>
o > o >>
o > o >>
o > o >>>On 3/28/06, Tom Ferris <[hidden email]> wrote:
o > o >>>
o > o >>>
o > o >>>>I am trying to install xorg, and I get the following error:
o > o >>>>
o > o >>>>---> Fetching xorg
o > o >>>>Hi, my name is xorg
o > o >>>>I am broken and looking for someone to fix me.
o > o >>>>What can I say ?
o > o >>>>
o > o >>>>I tried installed X11user.dmg from Apple, but its says I
o > already have it
o > o >>>>installed?  Very confusing because when I try to run
o > ethereal, I get this
o > o >>>>error message:
o > o >>>>
o > o >>>>dyld: Library not loaded: /usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.6.dyulib
o > o >>>>   Referenced from: /opt/local/bin/ethereal
o > o >>>>   Reason: image not found
o > o >>>>
o > o >>>>-- Tom
o > o >>>>_______________________________________________
o > o >>>>Darwinports mailing list
o > o >>>>[hidden email]
o > o >>>>http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports
o > o >>>>
o > o >>>>
o > o >>>>
o > o >>>_______________________________________________
o > o >>>Darwinports mailing list
o > o >>>[hidden email]
o > o >>>http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports
o > o >>>
o > o >>>
o > o >>>
o > o >_______________________________________________
o > o >Darwinports mailing list
o > o >[hidden email]
o > o >http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports
o > o >
o > o >
o > o
o > o
o > o _______________________________________________
o > o Darwinports mailing list
o > o [hidden email]
o > o http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports
o > o
o > o
o >
o > --------------
o >   Salvatore Domenick Desiano
o >     Research Scientist
o >       Intelligent Systems Division (QSS Group, Inc.)
o >         Explorations Technology Directorate
o >           NASA Ames Research Center
o >
o > _______________________________________________
o > Darwinports mailing list
o > [hidden email]
o > http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports
o
o
o

--------------
  Salvatore Domenick Desiano
    Research Scientist
      Intelligent Systems Division (QSS Group, Inc.)
        Explorations Technology Directorate
          NASA Ames Research Center

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Re: Hard Links [was Re: xorg]

robert delius royar
In reply to this post by Salvatore Domenick Desiano
Wed, 29 Mar 2006 (13:23 -0500 UTC) Salvatore Domenick Desiano wrote:

> There was a flare-up a few weeks ago about hard links. People felt
> strongly that they shouldn't be used, but they (including me) weren't
> the people who actually write the port system code and do actual work,
> and we couldn't come up with a strong reason to force us to move away
> from hard links, so nothing ever happpened.
>
> Does anyone have any way of demosntrating that hard links can actually
> cause a slow down?
>
> -- Sal

Perhaps James Berry could add more to his November 2004 posts about
slowness of response on the HFS+ file system when hard links are large
in number.  The references I have are
Hardlinks are slow and inefficient on HFS+
Wed 10 Nov 2004 [hidden email]
and followups
Thu 11 Nov 2004 [hidden email] and
[hidden email]

The first message references a Developer technote at
http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn/tn1150.html#HardLinks

The thread is in the archives beginning at
http://opendarwin.org/pipermail/darwinports/2004-November/022708.html
That is an interesting thread for what it teaches about file systems.  I
assume that the file system has not changed the way hard links are
handled from 10.3 to 10.4 and that hard links still require extra lookup
time.

>
> P.S. Hard links -- possible Wiki design decision entry
>
> smile.
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, 29 Mar 2006, Tom Ferris wrote:
>
> o Brad Montgomery wrote:
> o
> o >You may also have to run
> o >
> o >sudo rm -rf /Applications/Utilities/X11.app/
> o >
> o >
> o
> o yeah, does not exist.. ;(  and i still cant install the X11user.dmg.  so
> o weird..
> o
> o >This will also delete the X11.app.  Originally, I was using XDarwin
> o >instead.  Apparently I've broken my X installation again, so I will
> o >update my website with my 2nd round experiences.
> o >
> o >On 3/28/06, Tom Ferris <[hidden email]> wrote:
> o >
> o >
> o >>On Tue, 28 Mar 2006, Brad Montgomery wrote:
> o >>
> o >>
> o >>
> o >>>Tom,
> o >>>
> o >>>I've been able to successfully run Ethereal (which I installed with
> o >>>DP) with Apple's X11.  Take a look here:
> o >>>http://bradmontgomery.net/show.php?page=project_osxX11
> o >>>
> o >>>
> o >>I did the steps on removing all the X11 libs, and then tried to install
> o >>the X11user.dmg, and its still saying a newer version exists.  But I
> o >>cannot find it? ;)
> o >>
> o >>
> o >>
> o >>>What version of OS X are you running?
> o >>>
> o >>>
> o >>>
> o >>10.4.5 PPC
> o >>
> o >>
> o >>
> o >>>On 3/28/06, Tom Ferris <[hidden email]> wrote:
> o >>>
> o >>>
> o >>>>I am trying to install xorg, and I get the following error:
> o >>>>
> o >>>>---> Fetching xorg
> o >>>>Hi, my name is xorg
> o >>>>I am broken and looking for someone to fix me.
> o >>>>What can I say ?
> o >>>>
> o >>>>I tried installed X11user.dmg from Apple, but its says I already have it
> o >>>>installed?  Very confusing because when I try to run ethereal, I get this
> o >>>>error message:
> o >>>>
> o >>>>dyld: Library not loaded: /usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.6.dyulib
> o >>>>   Referenced from: /opt/local/bin/ethereal
> o >>>>   Reason: image not found
> o >>>>
> o >>>>-- Tom
> o >>>>_______________________________________________
> o >>>>Darwinports mailing list
> o >>>>[hidden email]
> o >>>>http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports
> o >>>>
> o >>>>
> o >>>>
> o >>>_______________________________________________
> o >>>Darwinports mailing list
> o >>>[hidden email]
> o >>>http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports
> o >>>
> o >>>
> o >>>
> o >_______________________________________________
> o >Darwinports mailing list
> o >[hidden email]
> o >http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports
> o >
> o >
> o
> o
> o _______________________________________________
> o Darwinports mailing list
> o [hidden email]
> o http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports
> o
> o
>
> --------------
>  Salvatore Domenick Desiano
>    Research Scientist
>      Intelligent Systems Division (QSS Group, Inc.)
>        Explorations Technology Directorate
>          NASA Ames Research Center
>
> _______________________________________________
> Darwinports mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports
>

--
Dr. Robert Delius Royar                   Associate Professor of English
Morehead State University                             Morehead, Kentucky
                                    Making meaning one message at a time.
   #include "Snappy.Disclaimer.And.Quotation"
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Re: Hard Links [was Re: xorg]

Jordan K. Hubbard-3
Hard link performance in HFS+ has traditionally been somewhat sub-
optimal, this is true.  Given the more recent emphasis on changing  
this, it has gotten much better in Tiger and has a number of  
improvements currently underway for later releases.  I don't think  
the hard link need necessarily be looked upon with suspicion and  
loathing going forward, and if there are other architectural reasons  
to redesign DP's indirect mode then so be it, but I see it as a  
situation of diminishing returns to do it just because "hard links  
are bad."

- Jordan

On Mar 29, 2006, at 11:00 AM, robert delius royar wrote:

> Wed, 29 Mar 2006 (13:23 -0500 UTC) Salvatore Domenick Desiano wrote:
>
>> There was a flare-up a few weeks ago about hard links. People felt
>> strongly that they shouldn't be used, but they (including me) weren't
>> the people who actually write the port system code and do actual  
>> work,
>> and we couldn't come up with a strong reason to force us to move away
>> from hard links, so nothing ever happpened.
>>
>> Does anyone have any way of demosntrating that hard links can  
>> actually
>> cause a slow down?
>>
>> -- Sal
>
> Perhaps James Berry could add more to his November 2004 posts about  
> slowness of response on the HFS+ file system when hard links are  
> large in number.  The references I have are
> Hardlinks are slow and inefficient on HFS+
> Wed 10 Nov 2004 [hidden email]
> and followups
> Thu 11 Nov 2004 [hidden email] and  
> [hidden email]
>
> The first message references a Developer technote at http://
> developer.apple.com/technotes/tn/tn1150.html#HardLinks
>
> The thread is in the archives beginning at http://opendarwin.org/ 
> pipermail/darwinports/2004-November/022708.html
> That is an interesting thread for what it teaches about file  
> systems.  I assume that the file system has not changed the way  
> hard links are handled from 10.3 to 10.4 and that hard links still  
> require extra lookup time.
>
>>
>> P.S. Hard links -- possible Wiki design decision entry
>>
>> smile.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 29 Mar 2006, Tom Ferris wrote:
>>
>> o Brad Montgomery wrote:
>> o
>> o >You may also have to run
>> o >
>> o >sudo rm -rf /Applications/Utilities/X11.app/
>> o >
>> o >
>> o
>> o yeah, does not exist.. ;(  and i still cant install the  
>> X11user.dmg.  so
>> o weird..
>> o
>> o >This will also delete the X11.app.  Originally, I was using  
>> XDarwin
>> o >instead.  Apparently I've broken my X installation again, so I  
>> will
>> o >update my website with my 2nd round experiences.
>> o >
>> o >On 3/28/06, Tom Ferris <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> o >
>> o >
>> o >>On Tue, 28 Mar 2006, Brad Montgomery wrote:
>> o >>
>> o >>
>> o >>
>> o >>>Tom,
>> o >>>
>> o >>>I've been able to successfully run Ethereal (which I  
>> installed with
>> o >>>DP) with Apple's X11.  Take a look here:
>> o >>>http://bradmontgomery.net/show.php?page=project_osxX11
>> o >>>
>> o >>>
>> o >>I did the steps on removing all the X11 libs, and then tried  
>> to install
>> o >>the X11user.dmg, and its still saying a newer version exists.  
>> But I
>> o >>cannot find it? ;)
>> o >>
>> o >>
>> o >>
>> o >>>What version of OS X are you running?
>> o >>>
>> o >>>
>> o >>>
>> o >>10.4.5 PPC
>> o >>
>> o >>
>> o >>
>> o >>>On 3/28/06, Tom Ferris <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> o >>>
>> o >>>
>> o >>>>I am trying to install xorg, and I get the following error:
>> o >>>>
>> o >>>>---> Fetching xorg
>> o >>>>Hi, my name is xorg
>> o >>>>I am broken and looking for someone to fix me.
>> o >>>>What can I say ?
>> o >>>>
>> o >>>>I tried installed X11user.dmg from Apple, but its says I  
>> already have it
>> o >>>>installed?  Very confusing because when I try to run  
>> ethereal, I get this
>> o >>>>error message:
>> o >>>>
>> o >>>>dyld: Library not loaded: /usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.6.dyulib
>> o >>>>   Referenced from: /opt/local/bin/ethereal
>> o >>>>   Reason: image not found
>> o >>>>
>> o >>>>-- Tom
>> o >>>>_______________________________________________
>> o >>>>Darwinports mailing list
>> o >>>>[hidden email]
>> o >>>>http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports
>> o >>>>
>> o >>>>
>> o >>>>
>> o >>>_______________________________________________
>> o >>>Darwinports mailing list
>> o >>>[hidden email]
>> o >>>http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports
>> o >>>
>> o >>>
>> o >>>
>> o >_______________________________________________
>> o >Darwinports mailing list
>> o >[hidden email]
>> o >http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports
>> o >
>> o >
>> o
>> o
>> o _______________________________________________
>> o Darwinports mailing list
>> o [hidden email]
>> o http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports
>> o
>> o
>>
>> --------------
>>  Salvatore Domenick Desiano
>>    Research Scientist
>>      Intelligent Systems Division (QSS Group, Inc.)
>>        Explorations Technology Directorate
>>          NASA Ames Research Center
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Darwinports mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports
>>
>
> --
> Dr. Robert Delius Royar                   Associate Professor of  
> English
> Morehead State University                             Morehead,  
> Kentucky
>                                    Making meaning one message at a  
> time.
>   #include "Snappy.Disclaimer.And.Quotation"
>                         -%DCL-E-FILENOTFOUND
>   13:37 up 4 days, 2:39, 1 user, load averages: 0.50 0.31 0.14
> _______________________________________________
> Darwinports mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports

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Re: Hard Links [was Re: xorg]

James Berry-3
In reply to this post by robert delius royar

On Mar 29, 2006, at 11:00 AM, robert delius royar wrote:

> Perhaps James Berry could add more to his November 2004 posts about  
> slowness of response on the HFS+ file system when hard links are  
> large in number.

I think I already commented some.

I did report the problem to apple, and they could "no longer  
reproduce it" after the 10.4.1 update. I think this means they fixed  
it ;)

I'm attaching a script I wrote, way back when, to test the speed of  
access of to files, symlinks, and hardlinks. If you run it with  
varying numbers of files, you'll start to see the issues on 10.3. The  
curves became much more realistic with 10.4/10.4.1.

The only other caution I'll give is that if you are on 10.3, and have  
seen this issue, I believe that you really want to reformat your  
drive. I saw persistent issues on a drive that was impacted by the  
problem until I (a) deleted the lion's share of the hardlinked files,  
and (b) reformatted and reinstalled files onto the drive. This was  
with a drive that contained 100's and 100's of thousands of hardlinks.

As Jordan says, I don't know of any particular reason to be too  
afraid of hardlinks with 10.4. At least I have not run into the same  
sorts of problems there. I run dp with image mode. But I  also no  
longer use the backup strategy that got me into the 100's of  
thousands of hardlinks.

James.

The test script (you may need to tweak it a little). It basically  
creates a disk image on which to do its testing so that it works in a  
somewhat controlled fashion. If the attachment gets stripped by the  
list, feel free to ask me for it off-list.





> The references I have are
> Hardlinks are slow and inefficient on HFS+
> Wed 10 Nov 2004 [hidden email]
> and followups
> Thu 11 Nov 2004 [hidden email] and  
> [hidden email]
>
> The first message references a Developer technote at http://
> developer.apple.com/technotes/tn/tn1150.html#HardLinks
>
> The thread is in the archives beginning at http://opendarwin.org/ 
> pipermail/darwinports/2004-November/022708.html
> That is an interesting thread for what it teaches about file  
> systems.  I assume that the file system has not changed the way  
> hard links are handled from 10.3 to 10.4 and that hard links still  
> require extra lookup time.
>
>>
>> P.S. Hard links -- possible Wiki design decision entry
>>
>> smile.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 29 Mar 2006, Tom Ferris wrote:
>>
>> o Brad Montgomery wrote:
>> o
>> o >You may also have to run
>> o >
>> o >sudo rm -rf /Applications/Utilities/X11.app/
>> o >
>> o >
>> o
>> o yeah, does not exist.. ;(  and i still cant install the  
>> X11user.dmg.  so
>> o weird..
>> o
>> o >This will also delete the X11.app.  Originally, I was using  
>> XDarwin
>> o >instead.  Apparently I've broken my X installation again, so I  
>> will
>> o >update my website with my 2nd round experiences.
>> o >
>> o >On 3/28/06, Tom Ferris <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> o >
>> o >
>> o >>On Tue, 28 Mar 2006, Brad Montgomery wrote:
>> o >>
>> o >>
>> o >>
>> o >>>Tom,
>> o >>>
>> o >>>I've been able to successfully run Ethereal (which I  
>> installed with
>> o >>>DP) with Apple's X11.  Take a look here:
>> o >>>http://bradmontgomery.net/show.php?page=project_osxX11
>> o >>>
>> o >>>
>> o >>I did the steps on removing all the X11 libs, and then tried  
>> to install
>> o >>the X11user.dmg, and its still saying a newer version exists.  
>> But I
>> o >>cannot find it? ;)
>> o >>
>> o >>
>> o >>
>> o >>>What version of OS X are you running?
>> o >>>
>> o >>>
>> o >>>
>> o >>10.4.5 PPC
>> o >>
>> o >>
>> o >>
>> o >>>On 3/28/06, Tom Ferris <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> o >>>
>> o >>>
>> o >>>>I am trying to install xorg, and I get the following error:
>> o >>>>
>> o >>>>---> Fetching xorg
>> o >>>>Hi, my name is xorg
>> o >>>>I am broken and looking for someone to fix me.
>> o >>>>What can I say ?
>> o >>>>
>> o >>>>I tried installed X11user.dmg from Apple, but its says I  
>> already have it
>> o >>>>installed?  Very confusing because when I try to run  
>> ethereal, I get this
>> o >>>>error message:
>> o >>>>
>> o >>>>dyld: Library not loaded: /usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.6.dyulib
>> o >>>>   Referenced from: /opt/local/bin/ethereal
>> o >>>>   Reason: image not found
>> o >>>>
>> o >>>>-- Tom
>> o >>>>_______________________________________________
>> o >>>>Darwinports mailing list
>> o >>>>[hidden email]
>> o >>>>http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports
>> o >>>>
>> o >>>>
>> o >>>>
>> o >>>_______________________________________________
>> o >>>Darwinports mailing list
>> o >>>[hidden email]
>> o >>>http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports
>> o >>>
>> o >>>
>> o >>>
>> o >_______________________________________________
>> o >Darwinports mailing list
>> o >[hidden email]
>> o >http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports
>> o >
>> o >
>> o
>> o
>> o _______________________________________________
>> o Darwinports mailing list
>> o [hidden email]
>> o http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports
>> o
>> o
>>
>> --------------
>>  Salvatore Domenick Desiano
>>    Research Scientist
>>      Intelligent Systems Division (QSS Group, Inc.)
>>        Explorations Technology Directorate
>>          NASA Ames Research Center
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Darwinports mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports
>>
>
> --
> Dr. Robert Delius Royar                   Associate Professor of  
> English
> Morehead State University                             Morehead,  
> Kentucky
>                                    Making meaning one message at a  
> time.
>   #include "Snappy.Disclaimer.And.Quotation"
>                         -%DCL-E-FILENOTFOUND
>   13:37 up 4 days, 2:39, 1 user, load averages: 0.50 0.31 0.14
> _______________________________________________
> Darwinports mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports

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Re: Hard Links [was Re: xorg]

Salvatore Domenick Desiano
o afraid of hardlinks with 10.4. At least I have not run into the same
o sorts of problems there. I run dp with image mode. But I  also no
o longer use the backup strategy that got me into the 100's of
o thousands of hardlinks.

I don't want to re-open an old debate, but the issue with hard links had
to do with DP across shared file systems.

As soon as my research gets into full swing (a few months from now),
I'll stop suggesting topics for a "Design Decisions" Wiki page and
actually make the page. Until then, please pardon me if I say things
like "WIKI ITEM" in my posts. It's so that I can find them later when
I'm actually putting the page together.

Feel free to make the same notation yourself, and I'll include your
posts as well.

-- Sal
smile.



--------------
  Salvatore Domenick Desiano
    Research Scientist
      Intelligent Systems Division (QSS Group, Inc.)
        Explorations Technology Directorate
          NASA Ames Research Center

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Re: Hard Links [was Re: xorg]

Tom Ferris
I still cannot install X11. ;)  Anything I should do?

-- Tom

>o afraid of hardlinks with 10.4. At least I have not run into the same
>o sorts of problems there. I run dp with image mode. But I  also no
>o longer use the backup strategy that got me into the 100's of
>o thousands of hardlinks.
>
>I don't want to re-open an old debate, but the issue with hard links had
>to do with DP across shared file systems.
>
>As soon as my research gets into full swing (a few months from now),
>I'll stop suggesting topics for a "Design Decisions" Wiki page and
>actually make the page. Until then, please pardon me if I say things
>like "WIKI ITEM" in my posts. It's so that I can find them later when
>I'm actually putting the page together.
>
>Feel free to make the same notation yourself, and I'll include your
>posts as well.
>
>-- Sal
>smile.
>
>
>
>--------------
>  Salvatore Domenick Desiano
>    Research Scientist
>      Intelligent Systems Division (QSS Group, Inc.)
>        Explorations Technology Directorate
>          NASA Ames Research Center
>
>  
>
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Re: Hard Links [was Re: xorg]

Chris-158
Hello,
I ran into a few X11 issues when I first installed DP. In my case; Xcode
didn't install the X11-SDK files. It only created the folder(s). Installing
the X11-SDK as a seerate install cured it for me. This enabled me to use
the X11 Apple had installed. While your situation may be different than mine;
I thought it might help you in tracing down your issue(s) (Xcode).

--Chris

Quoting Tom Ferris <[hidden email]>:

> I still cannot install X11. ;)  Anything I should do?
>
> -- Tom
>
>> o afraid of hardlinks with 10.4. At least I have not run into the same
>> o sorts of problems there. I run dp with image mode. But I  also no
>> o longer use the backup strategy that got me into the 100's of
>> o thousands of hardlinks.
>>
>> I don't want to re-open an old debate, but the issue with hard links had
>> to do with DP across shared file systems.
>>
>> As soon as my research gets into full swing (a few months from now),
>> I'll stop suggesting topics for a "Design Decisions" Wiki page and
>> actually make the page. Until then, please pardon me if I say things
>> like "WIKI ITEM" in my posts. It's so that I can find them later when
>> I'm actually putting the page together.
>>
>> Feel free to make the same notation yourself, and I'll include your
>> posts as well.
>>
>> -- Sal
>> smile.
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------
>>  Salvatore Domenick Desiano
>>    Research Scientist
>>      Intelligent Systems Division (QSS Group, Inc.)
>>        Explorations Technology Directorate
>>          NASA Ames Research Center
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Darwinports mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.opendarwin.org/mailman/listinfo/darwinports
>



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