update GCC version?

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update GCC version?

Alex Christensen-2
We are looking into using more C++14 features in WebKit, which would require increasing the minimum supported compiler versions.  For example, Yusuke’s patch in https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=165093 compiles successfully in clang and I verified it compiles successfully in VS2017RC, but it does not compile successfully in the minimum supported GCC version on linux because of lack of support for C++14 extended constexpr (see https://isocpp.org/wiki/faq/cpp14-language#extended-constexpr )

We are not ready to require VS2017 just yet.  It hasn’t even been fully released.  But there are many C++14 features that are not supported in VS2015 (see https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh567368.aspx and https://www.visualstudio.com/en-us/news/releasenotes/vs2017-relnotes ) and we would like to use these features in WebKit.

Would the linux community be able to increase the minimum supported GCC version?

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Re: update GCC version?

Konstantin Tokarev


07.01.2017, 22:30, "Alex Christensen" <[hidden email]>:
> We are looking into using more C++14 features in WebKit, which would require increasing the minimum supported compiler versions.  For example, Yusuke’s patch in https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=165093 compiles successfully in clang and I verified it compiles successfully in VS2017RC, but it does not compile successfully in the minimum supported GCC version on linux because of lack of support for C++14 extended constexpr (see https://isocpp.org/wiki/faq/cpp14-language#extended-constexpr )
>
> We are not ready to require VS2017 just yet.  It hasn’t even been fully released.  But there are many C++14 features that are not supported in VS2015 (see https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh567368.aspx and https://www.visualstudio.com/en-us/news/releasenotes/vs2017-relnotes ) and we would like to use these features in WebKit.

But how are you going to use these features before requiring VS2017?

>
> Would the linux community be able to increase the minimum supported GCC version?
> ,
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
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Re: update GCC version?

Alex Christensen-2

> On Jan 7, 2017, at 11:39 AM, Konstantin Tokarev <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
> 07.01.2017, 22:30, "Alex Christensen" <[hidden email]>:
>> We are looking into using more C++14 features in WebKit, which would require increasing the minimum supported compiler versions.  For example, Yusuke’s patch in https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=165093 compiles successfully in clang and I verified it compiles successfully in VS2017RC, but it does not compile successfully in the minimum supported GCC version on linux because of lack of support for C++14 extended constexpr (see https://isocpp.org/wiki/faq/cpp14-language#extended-constexpr )
>>
>> We are not ready to require VS2017 just yet.  It hasn’t even been fully released.  But there are many C++14 features that are not supported in VS2015 (see https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh567368.aspx and https://www.visualstudio.com/en-us/news/releasenotes/vs2017-relnotes ) and we would like to use these features in WebKit.
>
> But how are you going to use these features before requiring VS2017?
We would not be able to.  This is a question about updating the GCC version after we require VS2017 which will probably be in the coming months.

>
>>
>> Would the linux community be able to increase the minimum supported GCC version?
>> ,
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> webkit-dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev
>
>
> --
> Regards,
> Konstantin

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Re: update GCC version?

zan
In reply to this post by Alex Christensen-2
On Sat, Jan 7, 2017, at 08:30 PM, Alex Christensen wrote:
> We are looking into using more C++14 features in WebKit, which would require increasing the minimum supported compiler versions.  For example, Yusuke’s patch in https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=165093 compiles successfully in clang and I verified it compiles successfully in VS2017RC, but it does not compile successfully in the minimum supported GCC version on linux because of lack of support for C++14 extended constexpr (see https://isocpp.org/wiki/faq/cpp14-language#extended-constexpr )
>
> We are not ready to require VS2017 just yet.  It hasn’t even been fully released.  But there are many C++14 features that are not supported in VS2015 (see https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh567368.aspx and https://www.visualstudio.com/en-us/news/releasenotes/vs2017-relnotes ) and we would like to use these features in WebKit.
>
> Would the linux community be able to increase the minimum supported GCC version?

For the record, GCC 5 has complete C++14 support. The current
requirement is 4.9, so the bump would be minimal.
https://gcc.gnu.org/projects/cxx-status.html#cxx14
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Re: update GCC version?

Michael Catanzaro
On Sun, 2017-01-08 at 18:59 +0100, [hidden email] wrote:
> For the record, GCC 5 has complete C++14 support. The current
> requirement is 4.9, so the bump would be minimal.
> https://gcc.gnu.org/projects/cxx-status.html#cxx14

We would need to redefine our dependencies policy:

https://trac.webkit.org/wiki/WebKitGTK/DependenciesPolicy

We just recently crafted that policy. I kinda like it because it
provides a clear formula for deciding whether a compiler is too new to
be required or not. It means we would support GCC 4.9 until roughly
next spring/summer, one year from the next Debian release. We could
either (a) drop Debian from the policy, which I support doing anyway
because it does not take our security updates, or we could (b) define
the policy in terms of runtime dependencies, rather than build
dependencies (which I think Carlos Garcia wanted to do anyway). Either
way makes it more likely that distributions will get cut off and choose
to not provide WebKit security updates. I would prefer not to do (b),
because in practice distributions will just not take our updates if
they can't use their default compiler.

Keep in mind that for a distro to upgrade from GCC 4.9 -> 5.0 is weeks
of effort unless you build GCC with the flag that turns on the old C++
ABI, but you have to switch to the new ABI eventually, so might as well
do it at the same time. I have to support WebKit for a distribution
that has been delaying the upgrade for this reason. GCC upgrades are
expensive and not fun. Even turning off the ABI switch, upgrading GCC
means lots of obscure C++ build failures in packages you're not
familiar with.

Michael
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Re: update GCC version?

Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez
On 09/01/17 01:09, Michael Catanzaro wrote:

> On Sun, 2017-01-08 at 18:59 +0100, [hidden email] wrote:
>> For the record, GCC 5 has complete C++14 support. The current
>> requirement is 4.9, so the bump would be minimal.
>> https://gcc.gnu.org/projects/cxx-status.html#cxx14
> We would need to redefine our dependencies policy:
>
> https://trac.webkit.org/wiki/WebKitGTK/DependenciesPolicy
>
> We just recently crafted that policy. I kinda like it because it
> provides a clear formula for deciding whether a compiler is too new to
> be required or not. It means we would support GCC 4.9 until roughly
> next spring/summer, one year from the next Debian release. We could
> either (a) drop Debian from the policy, which I support doing anyway
> because it does not take our security updates, or we could (b) define
> the policy in terms of runtime dependencies, rather than build
> dependencies (which I think Carlos Garcia wanted to do anyway). Either
> way makes it more likely that distributions will get cut off and choose
> to not provide WebKit security updates. I would prefer not to do (b),
> because in practice distributions will just not take our updates if
> they can't use their default compiler.
>
I strongly oppose to do (a). Also, it is false that Debian doesn't take
our updates. They take our updates in the backports repository for stable.

I also don't like (b).

Another idea is: (c) Drop the "one year after the release" requirement.
Which means that we could update to minimum GCC version to 5.3 (the one
in last Ubuntu LTS) when Debian 9 is released (which hopefully is
expected to happen around the middle of 2017).

A date that I guess will be near enough to when VS2017 is released.

This will mean that instead of supporting up to 3-year old dependencies
we will only support up to 2-year old ones.
I'm not particular enthusiast about this, but I'm ready to understand
that supporting 3-year old dependencies is not realistic on a project
like WebKit.

> Keep in mind that for a distro to upgrade from GCC 4.9 -> 5.0 is weeks
> of effort unless you build GCC with the flag that turns on the old C++
> ABI, but you have to switch to the new ABI eventually, so might as well
> do it at the same time. I have to support WebKit for a distribution
> that has been delaying the upgrade for this reason. GCC upgrades are
> expensive and not fun. Even turning off the ABI switch, upgrading GCC
> means lots of obscure C++ build failures in packages you're not
> familiar with.
>
> Michael
Another (maybe easier) way forward for building it on distros that have
libstdc++ < 5.0 is to use clang.


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Re: update GCC version?

Michael Catanzaro
On Mon, 2017-01-09 at 16:39 +0100, Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez wrote:
> I strongly oppose to do (a). Also, it is false that Debian doesn't
> take
> our updates. They take our updates in the backports repository for
> stable.

Nobody uses that. Users expect to receive security updates in the
security repository.
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Re: update GCC version?

Konstantin Tokarev


09.01.2017, 18:47, "Michael Catanzaro" <[hidden email]>:
> On Mon, 2017-01-09 at 16:39 +0100, Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez wrote:
>>  I strongly oppose to do (a). Also, it is false that Debian doesn't
>>  take
>>  our updates. They take our updates in the backports repository for
>>  stable.
>
> Nobody uses that. Users expect to receive security updates in the
> security repository.

"Nobody" and "not everybody" are different quantifiers.

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Re: update GCC version?

Michael Catanzaro
In reply to this post by Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez
On Mon, 2017-01-09 at 16:39 +0100, Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez wrote:

> Another idea is: (c) Drop the "one year after the release"
> requirement.
> Which means that we could update to minimum GCC version to 5.3 (the
> one
> in last Ubuntu LTS) when Debian 9 is released (which hopefully is
> expected to happen around the middle of 2017).
>
> A date that I guess will be near enough to when VS2017 is released.
>
> This will mean that instead of supporting up to 3-year old
> dependencies
> we will only support up to 2-year old ones.
> I'm not particular enthusiast about this, but I'm ready to understand
> that supporting 3-year old dependencies is not realistic on a project
> like WebKit.

I think it is totally realistic to support 3-year old dependencies.
There's absolutely no reason we cannot do it if we want to. The latest
compiler features are nice-to-haves, not requirements.

But I agree that this would be a good solution if we want to bump the
GCC requirement sooner. As you pointed out, it would allow us to do
that this summer rather than next summer.

Michael
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Re: update GCC version?

Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez
In reply to this post by Michael Catanzaro
On 09/01/17 16:47, Michael Catanzaro wrote:
> On Mon, 2017-01-09 at 16:39 +0100, Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez wrote:
>> I strongly oppose to do (a). Also, it is false that Debian doesn't
>> take
>> our updates. They take our updates in the backports repository for
>> stable.
>
> Nobody uses that. Users expect to receive security updates in the
> security repository.
>

Can you please explain how you reach that conclusion?
Do you have any data to back up such claim?


I'm a Debian user and I use the backports repository extensively.
And I have the feeling that most desktop users of Debian stable also use it.


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Re: update GCC version?

Michael Catanzaro
On Mon, 2017-01-09 at 16:56 +0100, Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez wrote:
> Can you please explain how you reach that conclusion?
> Do you have any data to back up such claim?

No, I don't have data, but it seems extremely naive to assume that any
significant subset of users use backports. It is not enabled by
default, and we know users almost never change defaults. Reasonable
users assume they are receiving security updates by default.

This seems to have diverged from the topic at hand, though. I agree
your proposal to remove the +1 year requirement is better than both of
mine, so if we decide to bump the compiler requirement that's the one
we should choose.

Michael
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Re: update GCC version?

Konstantin Tokarev


09.01.2017, 20:53, "Michael Catanzaro" <[hidden email]>:
> On Mon, 2017-01-09 at 16:56 +0100, Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez wrote:
>>  Can you please explain how you reach that conclusion?
>>  Do you have any data to back up such claim?
>
> No, I don't have data, but it seems extremely naive to assume that any
> significant subset of users use backports. It is not enabled by
> default, and we know users almost never change defaults.

I believe users of WebKit can be reasonably split into two groups:
1) desktop
2) server

In case of desktop, I can assure you that it's genuinely hard to use distro like Debian stable or CentOS on desktop without any additional repos. Backports repo comes as a first candidate in case of Debian.

In case of server, indeed people won't change defaults until they very much need it. However, WebKit is not a typical server software, so I think it would be reasonable to assume server users know what they are doing.


> Reasonable
> users assume they are receiving security updates by default.
>
> This seems to have diverged from the topic at hand, though. I agree
> your proposal to remove the +1 year requirement is better than both of
> mine, so if we decide to bump the compiler requirement that's the one
> we should choose.
>
> Michael
> _______________________________________________
> webkit-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev

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Re: update GCC version?

Alex Christensen-2
In reply to this post by Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez

On Jan 9, 2017, at 7:39 AM, Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 09/01/17 01:09, Michael Catanzaro wrote:
On Sun, 2017-01-08 at 18:59 +0100, [hidden email] wrote:
For the record, GCC 5 has complete C++14 support. The current
requirement is 4.9, so the bump would be minimal.
https://gcc.gnu.org/projects/cxx-status.html#cxx14
We would need to redefine our dependencies policy:

https://trac.webkit.org/wiki/WebKitGTK/DependenciesPolicy

We just recently crafted that policy. I kinda like it because it
provides a clear formula for deciding whether a compiler is too new to
be required or not. It means we would support GCC 4.9 until roughly
next spring/summer, one year from the next Debian release. We could
either (a) drop Debian from the policy, which I support doing anyway
because it does not take our security updates, or we could (b) define
the policy in terms of runtime dependencies, rather than build
dependencies (which I think Carlos Garcia wanted to do anyway). Either
way makes it more likely that distributions will get cut off and choose
to not provide WebKit security updates. I would prefer not to do (b),
because in practice distributions will just not take our updates if
they can't use their default compiler.


I strongly oppose to do (a). Also, it is false that Debian doesn't take
our updates. They take our updates in the backports repository for stable.

I also don't like (b).

Another idea is: (c) Drop the "one year after the release" requirement.
Which means that we could update to minimum GCC version to 5.3 (the one
in last Ubuntu LTS) when Debian 9 is released (which hopefully is
expected to happen around the middle of 2017).

A date that I guess will be near enough to when VS2017 is released.
A mid-2017 upgrade would be quite reasonable.

This will mean that instead of supporting up to 3-year old dependencies
we will only support up to 2-year old ones.
I'm not particular enthusiast about this, but I'm ready to understand
that supporting 3-year old dependencies is not realistic on a project
like WebKit.

Keep in mind that for a distro to upgrade from GCC 4.9 -> 5.0 is weeks
of effort unless you build GCC with the flag that turns on the old C++
ABI, but you have to switch to the new ABI eventually, so might as well
do it at the same time. I have to support WebKit for a distribution
that has been delaying the upgrade for this reason. GCC upgrades are
expensive and not fun. Even turning off the ABI switch, upgrading GCC
means lots of obscure C++ build failures in packages you're not
familiar with.

Michael

Another (maybe easier) way forward for building it on distros that have
libstdc++ < 5.0 is to use clang.

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Re: update GCC version?

Alberto Garcia
In reply to this post by Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez
On Mon, Jan 09, 2017 at 04:39:44PM +0100, Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez wrote:

> I strongly oppose to do (a). Also, it is false that Debian doesn't
> take our updates. They take our updates in the backports repository
> for stable.

The main reason why that happens is that the WebKitGTK+ stable updates
not only include security fixes but also several other changes, which
is not how things usually work in Debian:

https://www.debian.org/security/faq#oldversion

Since WebKitGTK+ is conservative regarding API/ABI changes I don't
think there's much of a risk there, but there's definitely a risk
of introducing regressions, and unlike Mozilla or Chromium updating
WebKitGTK+ can affect or potentially break any of the many packages
that depend on it.

That's why I started uploading it to the backports repository, and my
plan is to keep the backports always up to date.

Berto
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Re: update GCC version?

Yusuke SUZUKI
It's middle of 2017! And Debian stable is released.

We discussed a bit about updating GCC and MSVC in [1].
Based on the comment from JF[1], I think start of July would be very nice timing to update our GCC version.

If we can update our compiler baselines including MSVC, it would be very nice to us because it means full C++14 support at least.


Regards,
Yusuke Suzuki

On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 4:44 AM, Alberto Garcia <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Mon, Jan 09, 2017 at 04:39:44PM +0100, Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez wrote:

> I strongly oppose to do (a). Also, it is false that Debian doesn't
> take our updates. They take our updates in the backports repository
> for stable.

The main reason why that happens is that the WebKitGTK+ stable updates
not only include security fixes but also several other changes, which
is not how things usually work in Debian:

https://www.debian.org/security/faq#oldversion

Since WebKitGTK+ is conservative regarding API/ABI changes I don't
think there's much of a risk there, but there's definitely a risk
of introducing regressions, and unlike Mozilla or Chromium updating
WebKitGTK+ can affect or potentially break any of the many packages
that depend on it.

That's why I started uploading it to the backports repository, and my
plan is to keep the backports always up to date.

Berto
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Re: update GCC version?

Michael Catanzaro
On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:36 PM, Yusuke SUZUKI <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> It's middle of 2017! And Debian stable is released.
>
> We discussed a bit about updating GCC and MSVC in [1].
> Based on the comment from JF[1], I think start of July would be very
> nice timing to update our GCC version.
>
> If we can update our compiler baselines including MSVC, it would be
> very nice to us because it means full C++14 support at least.
>
> [1]: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=173582
> [2]: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=173582#c10
>
> Regards,
> Yusuke Suzuki

I believe this is now fine for both WebKitGTK+ and WPE. We might need
to upgrade a bot or something, but we can surely figure that out. My
understanding is that Carlos Lopez has already upgraded most of the
bots.

Since I've heard no objections since proposing this months ago, I have
just now updated the WebKitGTK+ dependency policy [1] to change it to
apply only to runtime dependencies and not to the build toolchain.

Michael

[1] https://trac.webkit.org/wiki/WebKitGTK/DependenciesPolicy

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Re: update GCC version?

Alex Christensen-2
I’ve been using MSVC 2017 on my WinCairo bot for a while now and it builds fine.  It would take a bit to update our internal Windows infrastructure, but we should do that soon.


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Re: update GCC version?

Olmstead, Don-2
Same for our WinCairo bots which embed it into a Docker image, https://hub.docker.com/r/webkitdev/buildbot/.

The same images should be fine for AppleWin but it's not something I've tested.

-----Original Message-----
From: webkit-dev [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Alex Christensen
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 1:56 PM
To: Michael Catanzaro <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]; WebKit-Dev <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [webkit-dev] update GCC version?

I’ve been using MSVC 2017 on my WinCairo bot for a while now and it builds fine.  It would take a bit to update our internal Windows infrastructure, but we should do that soon.


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Re: update GCC version?

Yusuke SUZUKI
I've just opened the bug for upgrading GCC version.

Regards,
Yusuke Suzuki

On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 2:21 AM, Olmstead, Don <[hidden email]> wrote:
Same for our WinCairo bots which embed it into a Docker image, https://hub.docker.com/r/webkitdev/buildbot/.

The same images should be fine for AppleWin but it's not something I've tested.

-----Original Message-----
From: webkit-dev [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Alex Christensen
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 1:56 PM
To: Michael Catanzaro <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]; WebKit-Dev <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [webkit-dev] update GCC version?

I’ve been using MSVC 2017 on my WinCairo bot for a while now and it builds fine.  It would take a bit to update our internal Windows infrastructure, but we should do that soon.


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Re: update GCC version?

Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez
In reply to this post by Michael Catanzaro
On 23/06/17 19:55, Michael Catanzaro wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:36 PM, Yusuke SUZUKI <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>> It's middle of 2017! And Debian stable is released.
>>
>> We discussed a bit about updating GCC and MSVC in [1].
>> Based on the comment from JF[1], I think start of July would be very
>> nice timing to update our GCC version.
>>
>> If we can update our compiler baselines including MSVC, it would be
>> very nice to us because it means full C++14 support at least.
>>
>> [1]: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=173582
>> [2]: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=173582#c10
>>
>> Regards,
>> Yusuke Suzuki
>
> I believe this is now fine for both WebKitGTK+ and WPE. We might need to
> upgrade a bot or something, but we can surely figure that out. My
> understanding is that Carlos Lopez has already upgraded most of the bots.
>
> Since I've heard no objections since proposing this months ago, I have
> just now updated the WebKitGTK+ dependency policy [1] to change it to
> apply only to runtime dependencies and not to the build toolchain.
>
> Michael
>
> [1] https://trac.webkit.org/wiki/WebKitGTK/DependenciesPolicy
I think the default build toolchain should be supported also,
at least without the requirement of "one year after the release".

I propose this change to the policy over yours:

- This policy applies to runtime dependencies to ensure smooth updates for users.
- It does not apply to the build toolchain.
- A compiler other than the default compiler in an otherwise-supported distribution may be required to build.

+ This policy applies to the runtime dependencies to ensure smooth updates for users.
+ The requirement of "one year after the release" does not apply to the default toolchain.
+ On that extra year of support a compiler other than the default one in an otherwise-supported distribution may be required to build.


I think is important to not require a too much new version of the default toolchain (GCC).




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