macos as vm guest

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macos as vm guest

macports-2
after my development mac mini died (and the time backup appeared to be corrupt) i had to buy another mac.
now i have a 2013 imac that can run catalina, but sometimes i also need 10.11 for older hardware and software, and 10.13 for compatibilty with our other macs.

i would like these 10.11 and 10.13 as vm guest under 10.15.

which hypervisor should i use (paralells desktop, vmware, virtualbox, other)?



currently i'm trying parallels desktop 15 on 10.13 with 10.11 guest.

did a basic install and now on the vm guest in recovery mode run rsync from the original partition to the guest disk.

is there a better way? parallels has a transporter for windows but not for mac. is there a hidden conversion utility?


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Re: macos as vm guest

Ken Cunningham
> after my development mac mini died (and the time backup appeared to be corrupt) i had to buy another mac.
> now i have a 2013 imac that can run catalina, but sometimes i also need 10.11 for older hardware and software, and 10.13 for compatibilty with our other macs.
>
> i would like these 10.11 and 10.13 as vm guest under 10.15.
>
> which hypervisor should i use (paralells desktop, vmware, virtualbox, other)?
>
>
>
> currently i'm trying parallels desktop 15 on 10.13 with 10.11 guest.
>
> did a basic install and now on the vm guest in recovery mode run rsync from the original partition to the guest disk.
>
> is there a better way? parallels has a transporter for windows but not for mac. is there a hidden conversion utility?
>

I have Parallels running VMs for 10.5 to 10.15 on a 10.14 system.

Every one works perfectly. Rarely, there is a screen artifact on 10.5, that I fix by logging into it using Screen Sharing (on the same mac running Parallels) and rebooting it.

I have most of them set up as 8 processor 16GB RAM systems, and they scream. I will often run two of them simultaneously building LLVM or Webkit2-gtk to get the older systems working.

I use VirtualBox for 10.4 Intel, as Parallels won't support that. It is not easy with 10.4, but it works.

Ken


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Re: macos as vm guest

Ralph Seichter-3
In reply to this post by macports-2
* [hidden email]:

> i would like these 10.11 and 10.13 as vm guest under 10.15.

Why as a VM guest? Have you considered installing and booting different
macOS versions on separate partitions of the same machine? You can even
install macOS on external harddisks.

Another option I find interesting is macOS-Simple-KVM [1], if you happen
to have a spare Linux box sitting around.

  [1] https://github.com/foxlet/macOS-Simple-KVM

Not exactly what you asked for, but I still hope this helps a bit.

-Ralph
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Re: macos as vm guest

Michael_google gmail_Gersten
In reply to this post by Ken Cunningham
If I wanted to run a vm of something at 10.12 or newer, on a host running 10.9.5, is it doable?

If not: How well does 10.9.5 run as a guest on newer OS's?

Keep in mind: 10.9.5 was really the last "low security sandbox", and newer OS's restrict things. 10.9.5 was the last "old audio model" system, and some audio things break on newer stuff (ahem ... Jack Router. And "Jack still works with anything that lets you select an audio device" is only partially accurate -- I still could not use Qjack to route different programs differently, and if I could select an audio device specifically for that program, then I don't need Jack Router.)

Assume the goal is to be able to run a graphical program that wants 10.12 or higher, and get the audio capture/routing of Jack; I'm pretty sure that requires the 10.12+ to be the guest.

Current machine is a 2014 Macbook pro laptop. Is there a better machine that can run 10.9.5? (I think 10.10 was 2016?)

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Re: macos as vm guest

Michael_google gmail_Gersten
In reply to this post by Ralph Seichter-3

On 2020-06-25, at 3:03 PM, Ralph Seichter <[hidden email]> wrote:

> * [hidden email]:
>
>> i would like these 10.11 and 10.13 as vm guest under 10.15.
>
> Why as a VM guest? Have you considered installing and booting different
> macOS versions on separate partitions of the same machine? You can even
> install macOS on external harddisks.
>
> Another option I find interesting is macOS-Simple-KVM [1], if you happen
> to have a spare Linux box sitting around.
>
>  [1] https://github.com/foxlet/macOS-Simple-KVM
>
> Not exactly what you asked for, but I still hope this helps a bit.

Ohh, this is interesting.
How well does MacOS run on mac hardware with Linux as the host, and MacOS as the guest?

(Apple's software license says I can run it on Mac hardware, right? It doesn't say that it has to be the raw OS, does it?)

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Re: macos as vm guest

Perry Lee-2
On Thu, Jun 25, 2020, at 3:32 PM, Michael wrote:
(Apple's software license says I can run it on Mac hardware, right? It doesn't say that it has to be the raw OS, does it?)

From the software license agreement for macOS Catalina [1]: "to install, use and run up to two (2) additional copies or instances of the Apple Software within virtual operating system environments on each Mac Computer you own or control that is already running the Apple Software, for purposes of: (a) software development; (b) testing during software development; (c) using macOS Server; or (d) personal, non-commercial use"

It reads like the host OS has to be macOS too.

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Re: macos as vm guest

Peter Varga
In reply to this post by macports-2
On Thu, Jun 25, 2020, at 14:48, [hidden email] wrote:
> after my development mac mini died (and the time backup appeared to be
> corrupt) i had to buy another mac.
> now i have a 2013 imac that can run catalina, but sometimes i also need
> 10.11 for older hardware and software, and 10.13 for compatibilty with
> our other macs.
>
> i would like these 10.11 and 10.13 as vm guest under 10.15.
>
> which hypervisor should i use (paralells desktop, vmware, virtualbox, other)?

Parallels is worth every penny of it.  I have no affiliation with Parallels, it just work really well.  Some guest do not sync time that can be a nuisance but a few shell-foo it can be made work.  Once I started Parallel that’s it: I save more money by saving time than ~$100 a year.

>
>
>
> currently i'm trying parallels desktop 15 on 10.13 with 10.11 guest.
>
> did a basic install and now on the vm guest in recovery mode run rsync
> from the original partition to the guest disk.
>
> is there a better way? parallels has a transporter for windows but not
> for mac. is there a hidden conversion utility?
>
>
>
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Re: macos as vm guest

Michael_google gmail_Gersten
In reply to this post by Perry Lee-2

On 2020-06-25, at 3:52 PM, Perry Lee <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Thu, Jun 25, 2020, at 3:32 PM, Michael wrote:
(Apple's software license says I can run it on Mac hardware, right? It doesn't say that it has to be the raw OS, does it?)

From the software license agreement for macOS Catalina [1]: "to install, use and run up to two (2) additional copies or instances of the Apple Software within virtual operating system environments on each Mac Computer you own or control that is already running the Apple Software, for purposes of: (a) software development; (b) testing during software development; (c) using macOS Server; or (d) personal, non-commercial use"

It reads like the host OS has to be macOS too.


Glad I have no intention of ever using it, then. That's 10.15, that requires the root drive reformatting, with no compatible driver for older systems, right?

(Whether or not it's a better file system isn't the issue. 100% breaking compatibility with everything older is a bad move.)

Also: Already running the Mac OS? Well, my system is running 10.9.5, so it is already running mac os. Having to temporarily boot linux for a moment isn't an issue, right? It's not like it says "is running on some version of Mac OS at the moment you install this", but even if it did, I could set up/install one VM while running Mac OS, and then boot to linux to actually launch the VM for normal use.

If you think that's a silly argument, then look up why Gnu had to issue version 3 of their GPL -- different undefined "Of course it means X" terms got interpreted differently by different courts, possibly with less sensibility than this one.


---
Entertaining minecraft videos

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Re: macos as vm guest

ryandesign2
Administrator
On Jun 25, 2020, at 18:06, Michael wrote:

> That's 10.15, that requires the root drive reformatting, with no compatible driver for older systems, right?
>
> (Whether or not it's a better file system isn't the issue. 100% breaking compatibility with everything older is a bad move.)

Huh? On my 2012 MacBook Pro that I'm using for testing at the moment, I had no problem installing Catalina on an APFS volume, while also having Mojave and High Sierra installed on separate APFS volumes on the same partition, and having Lion and Sierra installed on separate HFS+ partitions, all on the internal disk.
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Re: macos as vm guest

ryandesign2
Administrator


On Jun 25, 2020, at 20:50, Ryan Schmidt wrote:

> On Jun 25, 2020, at 18:06, Michael wrote:
>
>> That's 10.15, that requires the root drive reformatting, with no compatible driver for older systems, right?
>>
>> (Whether or not it's a better file system isn't the issue. 100% breaking compatibility with everything older is a bad move.)
>
> Huh? On my 2012 MacBook Pro that I'm using for testing at the moment, I had no problem installing Catalina on an APFS volume, while also having Mojave and High Sierra installed on separate APFS volumes on the same partition, and having Lion and Sierra installed on separate HFS+ partitions, all on the internal disk.

If you meant that older systems can't read APFS volumes, that's true. Sierra and later can read APFS, High Sierra and later converts your boot volume to APFS if it's an SSD, Mojave and later converts your boot volume to APFS no matter what type of disk it is. El Capitan and earlier can't read APFS. If you have data you want to share with El Capitan and older, use an HFS+ disk.

Last time we got a new filesystem it was similar. Mac OS 8.1 introduced HFS+. Mac OS 8.0 and earlier could not read it. This wasn't a big problem. You could still keep any data you wanted to share with older systems on an HFS disk.

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Re: macos as vm guest

Michael_google gmail_Gersten
> On Jun 25, 2020, at 20:50, Ryan Schmidt wrote:
>
> If you meant that older systems can't read APFS volumes, that's true. Sierra and later can read APFS, High Sierra and later converts your boot volume to APFS if it's an SSD, Mojave and later converts your boot volume to APFS no matter what type of disk it is. El Capitan and earlier can't read APFS. If you have data you want to share with El Capitan and older, use an HFS+ disk.
>
> Last time we got a new filesystem it was similar. Mac OS 8.1 introduced HFS+. Mac OS 8.0 and earlier could not read it. This wasn't a big problem. You could still keep any data you wanted to share with older systems on an HFS disk.

I hate names instead of numbers. It's easy to order numbered versions.

Yes, there's one that will force your boot drive to APFS. So if you need to use older systems (I have 32 bit programs that have no 64 bit replacement. I use Jack Router when streaming and recording.), that means that at least a significant portion of your system and home directory/files will be forced into a drive that cannot be shared (and it seems that the newer the system, the tighter the sandbox/the less you can put outside of /Users/<username> or on a second partition.)

>> Huh? On my 2012 MacBook Pro that I'm using for testing at the moment, I had no problem installing Catalina on an APFS volume, while also having Mojave and High Sierra installed on separate APFS volumes on the same partition, and having Lion and Sierra installed on separate HFS+ partitions, all on the internal disk.

Now, this is a surprise to me. I thought that the newest systems forced the boot disk to be reformatted. I did not know that it was just a partition reformat.

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Re: macos as vm guest

Nils Breunese
Michael wrote:

Yes, there's one that will force your boot drive to APFS. So if you need to use older systems (I have 32 bit programs that have no 64 bit replacement. I use Jack Router when streaming and recording.), that means that at least a significant portion of your system and home directory/files will be forced into a drive that cannot be shared (and it seems that the newer the system, the tighter the sandbox/the less you can put outside of /Users/<username> or on a second partition.)

I have 10.15 and 10.14 (for some apps that are 32-bit only) installed on the same machine, and I didn’t even need to think about partitions, because storage space is shared across APFS volumes: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208891

Nils.
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Re: macos as vm guest

macports-2
In reply to this post by Ralph Seichter-3


> On 2020-06-26, at 00:03:16, Ralph Seichter <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> * [hidden email]:
>
>> i would like these 10.11 and 10.13 as vm guest under 10.15.
>
> Why as a VM guest? Have you considered installing and booting different
> macOS versions on separate partitions of the same machine? You can even
> install macOS on external harddisks.

that is my current situation that i want to stop.

> Another option I find interesting is macOS-Simple-KVM [1], if you happen
> to have a spare Linux box sitting around.
>
> [1] https://github.com/foxlet/macOS-Simple-KVM
>
> Not exactly what you asked for, but I still hope this helps a bit.

thanks for the suggestion, but i would like to keep osx on macs.

> -Ralph

paul.