Installing gcc6 on a PPC Mac Mini 10.4 gives me hell

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Installing gcc6 on a PPC Mac Mini 10.4 gives me hell

Andreas Falkenhahn
<rant>

So I installed gcc6 on my 10.5 G5 PowerMac a few days ago and it was a breeze.
It took just a few minutes. It looked like the installer just grabbed the binaries
and installed them. No big deal at all.

Now I am trying to install gcc6 on my 10.4 G4 Mac Mini and it seems to build
everything from sources and it's taking ages. Building apple-gcc42 took two
hours alone and that was just the first of many packages to come.

I'm worried about my hardware because the CPU is at 100% all the time causing
the Mac Mini fan to be in full ventilation all the time. It has been running
like that for 3 hours now and there are still many more packages to go. If it's
going to continue at that speed, I'd estimate the gcc6 installation to take
about 12 hours or so.

Where does this difference come from? On my 10.5 G5 PowerMac it really was
just a few minutes and now it's taking hours. Yes, the G5 is faster but
certainly not that much. To me it looked as if on 10.5 binaries were
downloaded and installed whereas on 10.4 everything is built from scratch.
Is that right?

If it is, there really should be a warning that this is going to take ages
because once the thing has been started there's no way out since I don't
want to interrupt it in the middle of installing for fear of breaking
something. And I'm worried about my hardware. It's 13 years old and now
has to run under full stress for hours and hours and hours :-/ Why doesn't
Mac Ports simply provide ready to run binaries for 10.4 PPC? The current
installation process feels a little bit like maximum overdose for my
poor old PPC Mac Mini...

</rant>

--
Best regards,
 Andreas Falkenhahn                          mailto:[hidden email]

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Re: Installing gcc6 on a PPC Mac Mini 10.4 gives me hell

Ken Cunningham
On 10.5 you installed a prebuilt binary.

gcc6 takes 12 to 24 hrs to build on a PPC machine.

I should make my premade binaries available.

K

> On Mar 20, 2018, at 14:32, Andreas Falkenhahn <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> <rant>
>
> So I installed gcc6 on my 10.5 G5 PowerMac a few days ago and it was a breeze.
> It took just a few minutes. It looked like the installer just grabbed the binaries
> and installed them. No big deal at all.
>
> Now I am trying to install gcc6 on my 10.4 G4 Mac Mini and it seems to build
> everything from sources and it's taking ages. Building apple-gcc42 took two
> hours alone and that was just the first of many packages to come.
>
> I'm worried about my hardware because the CPU is at 100% all the time causing
> the Mac Mini fan to be in full ventilation all the time. It has been running
> like that for 3 hours now and there are still many more packages to go. If it's
> going to continue at that speed, I'd estimate the gcc6 installation to take
> about 12 hours or so.
>
> Where does this difference come from? On my 10.5 G5 PowerMac it really was
> just a few minutes and now it's taking hours. Yes, the G5 is faster but
> certainly not that much. To me it looked as if on 10.5 binaries were
> downloaded and installed whereas on 10.4 everything is built from scratch.
> Is that right?
>
> If it is, there really should be a warning that this is going to take ages
> because once the thing has been started there's no way out since I don't
> want to interrupt it in the middle of installing for fear of breaking
> something. And I'm worried about my hardware. It's 13 years old and now
> has to run under full stress for hours and hours and hours :-/ Why doesn't
> Mac Ports simply provide ready to run binaries for 10.4 PPC? The current
> installation process feels a little bit like maximum overdose for my
> poor old PPC Mac Mini...
>
> </rant>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Andreas Falkenhahn                          mailto:[hidden email]
>
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Re: Installing gcc6 on a PPC Mac Mini 10.4 gives me hell

Andreas Falkenhahn
On 20.03.2018 at 21:35 Ken Cunningham wrote:

> On 10.5 you installed a prebuilt binary.
> gcc6 takes 12 to 24 hrs to build on a PPC machine.

Oh my, that's too much for me, I've just hit CTRL-C. Of course this might leave me with a corrupt installation but I'm just too paranoid about Mac Ports killing my hardware.

IMHO there really should be prebuilt binaries for 10.4. It's a waste of energy and resources to have everybody build this on his own...

--
Best regards,
 Andreas Falkenhahn                            mailto:[hidden email]

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Re: Installing gcc6 on a PPC Mac Mini 10.4 gives me hell

Daniel J. Luke
On Mar 20, 2018, at 4:43 PM, Andreas Falkenhahn <[hidden email]> wrote:
> IMHO there really should be prebuilt binaries for 10.4. It's a waste of energy and resources to have everybody build this on his own...

IMHO we shouldn't do anything to support Mac OS versions that aren't getting security patches from Apple anymore (since it's a dis-service to the rest of the people who use the internet when we make it easier for people to keep unpatched machines connected to that shared resource).

if you really want it, it's possible for anyone to run a 10.4 build machine and share archives: https://trac.macports.org/wiki/howto/ShareArchives2
--
Daniel J. Luke



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Re: Installing gcc6 on a PPC Mac Mini 10.4 gives me hell

Rainer Müller-4
In reply to this post by Andreas Falkenhahn
On 2018-03-20 21:43, Andreas Falkenhahn wrote:
> On 20.03.2018 at 21:35 Ken Cunningham wrote:
>
>> On 10.5 you installed a prebuilt binary.
>> gcc6 takes 12 to 24 hrs to build on a PPC machine.
>
> Oh my, that's too much for me, I've just hit CTRL-C. Of course this might leave me with a corrupt installation but I'm just too paranoid about Mac Ports killing my hardware.
>
> IMHO there really should be prebuilt binaries for 10.4. It's a waste of energy and resources to have everybody build this on his own...

I try to understand your frustration, but how many users of 10.4 on PPC
are out there? It probably takes more energy to build all the ports
nobody is ever going to install.

As you noticed it takes a lot of time to compile for 10.4 PPC. I see no
benefit of building for that, as the resources are better spent on
building binary archives for recent releases.

Personally, I do not understand why you are still running such an old
machine with macOS. This system is unsupported by Apple for about
10 years by now. In my opinion if you want to keep using the hardware,
install Linux or FreeBSD, but macOS for that platform is dead for a long
time already.

Rainer
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Re: Installing gcc6 on a PPC Mac Mini 10.4 gives me hell

Andreas Falkenhahn
On 20.03.2018 at 21:58 Rainer Müller wrote:

> Personally, I do not understand why you are still running such an old
> machine with macOS.

It's retro, there doesn't have to be a rational reason for it :-)
Besides, in the retro scene 10.4 is quite popular because it's the
last Mac OS capable of running Mac OS 9 software.

I also have a 10.6 installation which I won't update because 10.6
has Rosetta (PPC emulation). It's vintage - it needn't make sense.

--
Best regards,
 Andreas Falkenhahn                            mailto:[hidden email]

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Re: Installing gcc6 on a PPC Mac Mini 10.4 gives me hell

Mac_Dude
+1.

Uli

> On Mar 20, 2018, at 4:27 PM, Andreas Falkenhahn <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 20.03.2018 at 21:58 Rainer Müller wrote:
>
>> Personally, I do not understand why you are still running such an old
>> machine with macOS.
>
> It's retro, there doesn't have to be a rational reason for it :-)
> Besides, in the retro scene 10.4 is quite popular because it's the
> last Mac OS capable of running Mac OS 9 software.
>
> I also have a 10.6 installation which I won't update because 10.6
> has Rosetta (PPC emulation). It's vintage - it needn't make sense.
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Andreas Falkenhahn                            mailto:[hidden email]
>

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Re: Installing gcc6 on a PPC Mac Mini 10.4 gives me hell

Ryan Schmidt-24
In reply to this post by Andreas Falkenhahn

On Mar 20, 2018, at 15:32, Andreas Falkenhahn wrote:

> Where does this difference come from? On my 10.5 G5 PowerMac it really was
> just a few minutes and now it's taking hours. Yes, the G5 is faster but
> certainly not that much. To me it looked as if on 10.5 binaries were
> downloaded and installed whereas on 10.4 everything is built from scratch.
> Is that right?

Yes. We have never offered binaries for Mac OS X Tiger v10.4 or earlier. The ability for MacPorts to use binaries was added in version 2.0.0, released in 2011, at which point Tiger and Leopard had already been superseded by Snow Leopard for two years. We initially offered binaries for Snow Leopard x86_64, and added binaries for subsequent versions of macOS as they were released. When we left macOS forge at the end of 2016 and set up our own infrastructure and redesigned our build system, we also began building binaries for Snow Leopard i386 and Leopard ppc. We could purchase a second Power Mac G5 and start building binaries for Tiger ppc. There is not a great deal of interest in Tiger anymore, but I understand that the computers that are still running Tiger are slow and are thus the ones that might most benefit from the existence of binaries.
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Re: Installing gcc6 on a PPC Mac Mini 10.4 gives me hell

Chris Jones
In reply to this post by Andreas Falkenhahn


> On 20 Mar 2018, at 8:43 pm, Andreas Falkenhahn <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 20.03.2018 at 21:35 Ken Cunningham wrote:
>>
>> On 10.5 you installed a prebuilt binary.
>> gcc6 takes 12 to 24 hrs to build on a PPC machine.
>
> Oh my, that's too much for me, I've just hit CTRL-C. Of course this might leave me with a corrupt installation but I'm just too paranoid about Mac Ports killing my hardware.
>
> IMHO there really should be prebuilt binaries for 10.4. It's a waste of energy and resources to have everybody build this on his own...

The user base still using 10.4 is tiny tending to zero. It simply is not worth the effort.

>
> --
> Best regards,
> Andreas Falkenhahn                            mailto:[hidden email]
>

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Re: Installing gcc6 on a PPC Mac Mini 10.4 gives me hell

Chris Jones
In reply to this post by Daniel J. Luke


> On 20 Mar 2018, at 8:48 pm, Daniel J. Luke <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Mar 20, 2018, at 4:43 PM, Andreas Falkenhahn <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> IMHO there really should be prebuilt binaries for 10.4. It's a waste of energy and resources to have everybody build this on his own...
>
> IMHO we shouldn't do anything to support Mac OS versions that aren't getting security patches from Apple anymore (since it's a dis-service to the rest of the people who use the internet when we make it easier for people to keep unpatched machines connected to that shared resource).

Glad someone else has the same view on this as me. Completely agree.

>
> if you really want it, it's possible for anyone to run a 10.4 build machine and share archives: https://trac.macports.org/wiki/howto/ShareArchives2
> --
> Daniel J. Luke
>
>
>

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Re: Installing gcc6 on a PPC Mac Mini 10.4 gives me hell

Chris Jones
In reply to this post by Andreas Falkenhahn


> On 20 Mar 2018, at 9:27 pm, Andreas Falkenhahn <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 20.03.2018 at 21:58 Rainer Müller wrote:
>>
>> Personally, I do not understand why you are still running such an old
>> machine with macOS.
>
> It's retro, there doesn't have to be a rational reason for it :-)
> Besides, in the retro scene 10.4 is quite popular because it's the
> last Mac OS capable of running Mac OS 9 software.
>
> I also have a 10.6 installation which I won't update because 10.6
> has Rosetta (PPC emulation). It's vintage - it needn't make sense.

You can call these OSes ‘retro’ if you want, to make it sound good, but all they really are, are outdated and insecure.

>
> --
> Best regards,
> Andreas Falkenhahn                            mailto:[hidden email]
>

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Re: Installing gcc6 on a PPC Mac Mini 10.4 gives me hell

pagani laurent via macports-users
In reply to this post by Chris Jones
Hi,

Chris Jones wrote:
>> IMHO we shouldn't do anything to support Mac OS versions that aren't getting security patches from Apple anymore (since it's a dis-service to the rest of the people who use the internet when we make it easier for people to keep unpatched machines connected to that shared resource).
> Glad someone else has the same view on this as me. Completely agree.
>


Personally, I disagree... it may be because I usem and because any of
the mac I have can get updates, even if the hardware is fine and
perfectly fine software can run on it. Almost any dual-core intel mac is
quite fine for everyday usage, and running the last available (sadly
becoming obsolete) Firefox versions shows hoe nice those computers are.

Regarding PPC of course things are a bit worse, but there is "high
value" in those machines because of their architecture (in my opinion
"superior" or in an case "unique") and which is still a nice way to test
e.g. Big-Endianness in a conveninet way or in any case portability.
For others it has some "value", being the last in-house developed boards
of Apple instead of commodity stuff slapped in a cool Apple case.

I get a tear that I can run more op-to-date software on an old WIndows
XP PC than on a much more modern Mac, with 10.5 or even 10.7.
Just because Apple leaves people in the dust much earlier, free software
shouldn't, even if it does.

Sorry for the rant... I just love those old Macs too much. I need for
them only one thin.. current TLS and a browser and they would be ready
for every day!

Riccardo
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Re: Installing gcc6 on a PPC Mac Mini 10.4 gives me hell

David Strubbe-3
For the record, you can always stop a build by typing CTRL-C, and it will not corrupt anything. Only at the install stage are any files permanently changed. If you do "port clean" after stopping the build, you will be right back where you were before the build.

David

On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 4:13 PM, Riccardo Mottola via macports-users <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

Chris Jones wrote:
IMHO we shouldn't do anything to support Mac OS versions that aren't getting security patches from Apple anymore (since it's a dis-service to the rest of the people who use the internet when we make it easier for people to keep unpatched machines connected to that shared resource).
Glad someone else has the same view on this as me. Completely agree.



Personally, I disagree... it may be because I usem and because any of the mac I have can get updates, even if the hardware is fine and perfectly fine software can run on it. Almost any dual-core intel mac is quite fine for everyday usage, and running the last available (sadly becoming obsolete) Firefox versions shows hoe nice those computers are.

Regarding PPC of course things are a bit worse, but there is "high value" in those machines because of their architecture (in my opinion "superior" or in an case "unique") and which is still a nice way to test e.g. Big-Endianness in a conveninet way or in any case portability.
For others it has some "value", being the last in-house developed boards of Apple instead of commodity stuff slapped in a cool Apple case.

I get a tear that I can run more op-to-date software on an old WIndows XP PC than on a much more modern Mac, with 10.5 or even 10.7.
Just because Apple leaves people in the dust much earlier, free software shouldn't, even if it does.

Sorry for the rant... I just love those old Macs too much. I need for them only one thin.. current TLS and a browser and they would be ready for every day!

Riccardo

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Re: Installing gcc6 on a PPC Mac Mini 10.4 gives me hell

Andreas Falkenhahn
In reply to this post by Chris Jones
On 20.03.2018 at 23:59 Chris Jones wrote:

> You can call these OSes ‘retro’ if you want, to make it sound good,
> but all they really are, are outdated and insecure.

I've always preferred freedom over security. And by the way, I have
a feeling that with each new Mac OS version the system becomes more and
more curious about me, tries to collect data, hides things from me,
and tries to infantilize me by pretending to know what is good and bad
for me (Gatekeeper anyone?)

In that regard, the older Mac OS versions are really much more pleasant
than the latest releases which seem to take away more and more control
from the user. That might be very good for people without a clue about
computing but for coders it's a pain in the "donkey".

It's time to regain control - the OS is here to serve, not to spy on me
or impose its will on me :-)

$0.02

--
Best regards,
 Andreas Falkenhahn                            mailto:[hidden email]

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Re: Installing gcc6 on a PPC Mac Mini 10.4 gives me hell

Andreas Falkenhahn
In reply to this post by David Strubbe-3
On 21.03.2018 at 00:34 David Strubbe wrote:

> For the record, you can always stop a build by typing CTRL-C, and
> it will not corrupt anything. Only at the install stage are any
> files permanently changed. If you do "port clean" after stopping the
> build, you will be right back where you were before the build.

Thanks, that's good to know!

--
Best regards,
 Andreas Falkenhahn                            mailto:[hidden email]

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Re: Installing gcc6 on a PPC Mac Mini 10.4 gives me hell

miniupnp
In reply to this post by Chris Jones
I'm one of the guys who run a 10.4 G4 "just because I can". Some call it
retro computing :)
I'm glad macports still supports it and try to help to fix things when a
port is not building on it.

but I'm not expecting the project to spend resources in building
binaries for this kind of system.
When I need something, I just launch the "port install" command before
going to bed and let the build take the time it takes.

It's quite fun to read exhortations to use upgrade to a more recent
system. I'm trying to imagine which hacker could spend time to exploit
Mac PPC machines to include them in a bitcoin mining botnet ;)
On the other hand, it is also fun to read message about someone afraid
of his hardware burned by a hours long macports build  :)

Regards


Le 20.03.2018 à 23:55, Chris Jones a écrit :

>> On 20 Mar 2018, at 8:43 pm, Andreas Falkenhahn <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 20.03.2018 at 21:35 Ken Cunningham wrote:
>>>
>>> On 10.5 you installed a prebuilt binary.
>>> gcc6 takes 12 to 24 hrs to build on a PPC machine.
>> Oh my, that's too much for me, I've just hit CTRL-C. Of course this might leave me with a corrupt installation but I'm just too paranoid about Mac Ports killing my hardware.
>>
>> IMHO there really should be prebuilt binaries for 10.4. It's a waste of energy and resources to have everybody build this on his own...
> The user base still using 10.4 is tiny tending to zero. It simply is not worth the effort.


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Re: Installing gcc6 on a PPC Mac Mini 10.4 gives me hell

Daniel J. Luke
On Mar 21, 2018, at 2:23 PM, miniupnp <[hidden email]> wrote:
> It's quite fun to read exhortations to use upgrade to a more recent
> system. I'm trying to imagine which hacker could spend time to exploit
> Mac PPC machines to include them in a bitcoin mining botnet ;)

or DDOS or SPAM or other abusive behavior that makes it harder for others to utilize a shared resource.

but hey - at least you're having fun...

[It's possible to safely use old systems, but it's not trivial. The easiest way to keep that old hardware useful is to run an OS that is still being supported - it's unfortunate that Apple doesn't keep releasing security patches for older systems, but there's nothing that we can do about that].

--
Daniel J. Luke



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Re: Installing gcc6 on a PPC Mac Mini 10.4 gives me hell

miniupnp
Le 21.03.2018 à 19:29, Daniel J. Luke a écrit :
> On Mar 21, 2018, at 2:23 PM, miniupnp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> It's quite fun to read exhortations to use upgrade to a more recent
>> system. I'm trying to imagine which hacker could spend time to exploit
>> Mac PPC machines to include them in a bitcoin mining botnet ;)
> or DDOS or SPAM or other abusive behavior that makes it harder for others to utilize a shared resource.
>
> but hey - at least you're having fun...
>
> [It's possible to safely use old systems, but it's not trivial. The easiest way to keep that old hardware useful is to run an OS that is still being supported - it's unfortunate that Apple doesn't keep releasing security patches for older systems, but there's nothing that we can do about that].
You seems afraid of our 10.4 machines currently being exploited to abuse
the internet.
Let me reassure your : mine is currently turned off. Of course I would
not use such machine for production use...
I'm pretty sure that a turned off G4 Mac is less likely to send SPAM
than a state of the art intel machine which even "turned off" is still
running the ME.
You also minimize the economics aspects of security. As someone pointed
out, there are very few PowerPC 10.4 around. Even if easier to exploit
than newer system, who would invest in Mac OS 10.4 support for a SPAM
spending botnet ???
I would really want to see some statistics about the amount of DDOS
attacks or SPAM sent depending on OS/architectures.



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Re: Installing gcc6 on a PPC Mac Mini 10.4 gives me hell

Andreas Falkenhahn
In reply to this post by Ryan Schmidt-24
On 20.03.2018 at 23:51 Ryan Schmidt wrote:

> There is not a great deal of interest in Tiger anymore, but I
> understand that the computers that are still running Tiger are slow
> and are thus the ones that might most benefit from the existence of binaries.

Definitely. Having binaries would be a great benefit for those old
systems.

--
Best regards,
 Andreas Falkenhahn                            mailto:[hidden email]

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Re: Installing gcc6 on a PPC Mac Mini 10.4 gives me hell

Bill Cole
In reply to this post by miniupnp
On 21 Mar 2018, at 14:23, miniupnp wrote:

> On the other hand, it is also fun to read message about someone afraid
> of his hardware burned by a hours long macports build  :)

This is a serious concern. I've had 3 Macs (Cube, G5 iMac, MacBook) that
got worse at heat dissipation over time to the point that they could no
longer do anything CPU-heavy for more than about 15 minutes straight
without the thermal protection halting the system or in the case of the
Cube, sometimes NOT halting it before a seemingly hardware-generated
panic. It's not unreasonable to suspect that as thermal paste ages and
heat sinks get a layer of insulating dust, the baseline thermal wear is
a bit higher and high-load events become increasingly risky.
12